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TDC Fans Unite In Denial
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Do you want to know about the album before it physically lands in your sweaty little paw?
Yes, tell me, tell me!
37%
 37%  [ 15 ]
No, this is not right!
62%
 62%  [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 40

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Mr Nude



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to say: well put, Witchy.
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If...



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an argument that says that if you look at hardcore/child on the net, then you are a pornographer. You may not actually be making movies, exploiting young girls or buggering babies yourself, but by looking at said material, and therefore providing a market for the pornographers' wares, you might as well be.

While I, personally, think that this is a little simplistic to be agreed with in full, that argument could be applied to downloading MP3s. You can argue all you like that you are not going to distribute it, and that you are going to buy the album, but you are still providing a market for the pirates. That is wrong.

And don't say, "Well, it's there, and everyone else is doing it so I can't do anything to stop it"; it is a schoolboy argument, and a specious one at that. If everyone around is kicking s**t out of an Asian boy, should you join in just because they are? If people actually developed some morals, then these sites would not exist in the first place. And, anyway, it is ILLEGAL. In every part of the world. I fully support the music industry's prosecution of illegal file downloaders: just pointing out that these things happen does not, in any way, make them right.

And I'm sorry, but the vast majority of people that I know who have a passing interest in the Divine Comedy will download and album and not buy it. In previous times, there is a distinct probability that they would have.

The problem is, of course, partly the fault of the record companies (and the retailers). If we weren't all so aware that they were ** us all up the arse with the hefty prices that we have to pay for a CD (I saw Disintegration for £18.99 in HMV the other day!), then they might have won a little goodwill. And we also feel that any company responsible for exposing us to Will Young, Gareth Gates, Girls Aloud, One True Voice, etc. etc. should burn in the fires of Bankruptcy.

I personally also feel that the BB should have been informed, before anyone else, about the album release date and the track listing. But, one assumes that Claire, Neil et al. were rammed by the record company there.

However, downloading files is wrong and, I repeat, illegal. I do not wish to hear any tracks, apart from those that I heard at the Queen's Hall gig (which I liked. Especially Happy Goth!). You pirates just carry on. And don't apologise for being weak, it just makes you appear more of a wanker than you already do.
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Flip



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree almost entirely.

Superbly put.
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If...



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only almost entirely?

I must have made a mistake somewhere...
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blue circles



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If... wrote:
You pirates just carry on. And don't apologise for being weak, it just makes you appear more of a wanker than you already do.


I don't agree with this bit.
Wanting to hear something so badly that you give in to people throwing it in your face doesn't make me a wanker.
I think the wankers are the ones sitting on their high chairs moralising to the people who want to hear the album (after a three year wait) as soon as they can.


Last edited by blue circles on Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Flip



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think CD's are particularly expensive... even now..Most newish CD's are around the eleven, twelve quid mark.. which is nowt for what you get.

I constantly hear the most insane, ill thought out argument along the lines of "well a cd only costs 50p to make!!! blah blah blah whinge..."...People just don't get it, blinded by the desire to spend as little as possible, whilst wanting as much as possible.

Sure they could probably be a bit cheaper... and they are sometimes... and then they sometimes cost more. They're not however, in the main, ludicrously expensive.

Some of your analogies are a bit ropey too Wink
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If...



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blue circles wrote:
Wanting to hear something so badly that you give in to people throwing it in your face doesn't make me a wanker - it makes me a fan.


Hmmm, were they quite literally throwing it in your face? Or did you hear that it was on the net, and actively fire up your computer, actively visit the website, and actively press the button saying "STEAL"?

And how much of a fan? Do ya think that young Master Neil is going to thank you - or maybe forgive you - because you claim to be a fan?

My point about the wankers was that those who download this stuff and then apologise for it ("sorry, I'm weak", etc.) know that they are doing wrong, but do it anyway. That's a bit like someone joining in with a gang who are kicking someone else to death, and then saying, "Well, officer, I knew it was wrong; but, hey, sorry, I'm weak." Should they get a lighter sentence?
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If...



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
Sure they could probably be a bit cheaper... and they are sometimes... and then they sometimes cost more. They're not however, in the main, ludicrously expensive.


Especially in Edinburgh, where places like Avalanche and Fopp sell stuff very cheaply; which, of course, perfectly illustrates my point about the big retailers' huge cut...

Quote:
Some of your analogies are a bit ropey too Wink


Hey, man, this is spur of the moment stuff not a carefully edited essay, you know! Besides, most of the time, people need to be beaten with a big stick!

Wink
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blue circles



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If... wrote:
blue circles wrote:
Wanting to hear something so badly that you give in to people throwing it in your face doesn't make me a wanker - it makes me a fan.


Hmmm, were they quite literally throwing it in your face? Or did you hear that it was on the net, and actively fire up your computer, actively visit the website, and actively press the button saying "STEAL"?



Actually, as soon as I came home from work, two people popped up on msn - one of them offered me a couple of tracks and the other one offered me the entire album, so, no I didn't search anywhere or fire anything up.
At that point I knew absolutely nothing about any of it.


Last edited by blue circles on Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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If...



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, no actively turning them down on principle then?

Ah, well, who am I to govern the morals of others...?
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sponge monkey



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If... wrote:
There is an argument that says...

(snip)

...it just makes you appear more of a wanker than you already do.


I take it all that was for my benefit seeing as how I did most of the arguing earlier today. I really can't be arsed to reply other than saying that the view from the moral high ground must be pretty good from where you're standing.

Jesus Christ...
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If...



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, not at all. Why would you want to take it so personally; you are by no means the only person to have said any of those things?

I was just posting my opinion; that is what this forum is for? Ain't it? There, that was my opinion; I'd also like you to note that I took the time to read and understand the various arguments, as demonstrated by the fact that I quoted from the said arguments.

I would just have more respect for the offenders if they just said, "** it! I don't care about downloading s**t; I'll do it if I want to." My point in the last section was that, if you are going to download stuff - this album in particular - at least do it with some balls. I can't stand people who apologise for doing something bad, and then do it anyway. It's incredibly hypocritical.
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blue circles



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If... wrote:


I would just have more respect for the offenders if they just said, "** it! I don't care about downloading s**t; I'll do it if I want to." My point in the last section was that, if you are going to download stuff - this album in particular - at least do it with some balls. I can't stand people who apologise for doing something bad, and then do it anyway. It's incredibly hypocritical.


So, you're now giving us permission to download as long as we don't give a s**t or feel bad about it ?
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If...



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blue circles wrote:
So, you're now giving us permission to download as long as we don't give a s**t or feel bad about it ?


You don't need my permission, but basically yes.
If you feel bad about it, then you know it is wrong.
If you think it is wrong, don't do it.

I don't think that asking people to abide by their own morals is too much of a stretch - do you?
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oleg



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey hey hey. Don't go to sleep everyone - that was really good. You ended up discussing 'right' and 'wrong' and 'morals'. Great stuff.
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If...



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye, it happens occasionally. Very occasionally.

'Cos few of us have any.

Hee hee...
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Absolute Power
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are all bursting to hear the album. Absolutely busting. Many (among myself) would do anything to hear the new songs, after three years of dodgy live mp3s.

I love The Divine Comedy. I really do. Of all the music I listen to, 90% of it was written by Neil Hannon. Call me sad; call me pathetic.

I want to hear the new album. I want to hear Come Home Billy Bird before it is played on air. If I can. I will.
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cjmacs



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if this were "sex and the city" i would title this "is music art, or is it product?"

i am SO conflicted over the internet downloading thing... these are just a couple of random thoughts i'm having - i could change my mind completely about this by tomorrow!

as a musician, i don't make music to make money. i make music because i enjoy it. if people want to listen to my music that's wonderful. if they want to download it for free on the internet i do not care because i'm not making music to make money. the internet is a tool that i would use to promote my music, which in turn may lead to cd/merchandise sales, gigs, etc.

if i made a cd and they want to buy it so that they have a memento or hard copy or want the original artwork or wish to support my further endeavors, that's fine too. i have a job. i don't need to make music or sell cds to survive. it may be a simplistic or naive point of view but it's the way i feel based on my own experiences. if i made extra money selling cds or playing a gig, then great! to me it's just extra money though, and not the reason why i make music.

i tried for years to make a living as a musician but it was extremely difficult. i was constantly making decisions that bastardized my music and talent. i decided that taking a job to make a financially secure living was more important. well... not more important than my music, but certainly more important in terms of actual survival! i determined that having a job would allow me the financial freedom i needed and i could therefore continue to make music, and not have to worry about whether it was sell-able, commercial or even if anyone else liked it. and if someone else liked it then great!

it's a shame that talented people have to be concerned with sales and making money from their art. it's also a shame that downloading music is viewed as morally repugnant, illegal, criminal, and on and on. record companies enslave musicians (insert anti-record company rant here - imagine paying back a $250,000 advance...) and force them to look at their art as product. how many stories have YOU heard about musicians that have had to re-tool, remix, and radio-ready their music so that the record company will deem it palatable to the masses!

i don't think ANYone should take someone else's art and do anything with it without the artist's permission, and that means remixing and commercializing as well as uploading onto p2p servers. but to generalize and call downloading songs morally wrong isn't fair either. sometimes due to record company business practices, tracks by my favorite artists may not be easily available (and i order import cds, vinyl, etc on a regular basis). in some cases the only way to get a copy of some tracks has been through p2p servers. if all music by my favorite artists was easily and readily available i would have no problem with ordering it and paying for it.

again, due to poor business practices record companies can make these purchases completely or next-to impossible at times. if musicians view their music as product then they should do business with the record companies. if they don't look at their music as being product, then there should be no morally reprehensible stance against downloading off of the internet.

as i said, just some thoughts...
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If...



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, fair enough.
However, Neil has to make a living form his music.

Plus, as I've pointed out, it is illegal. It is theft; it is misappropriating someone's intellectual property...
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airboy paul



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, i kinda agree with if... if it was just live stuff or very rare stuff on the net, then my morals would say that is okay. but if it's something you can easily buy, then go do so. in this case it's just really annoying that the album has been sneaked out Two And A Half Months In Advance, oooh capitals. just seems a bit rude is all.
anyway, i'm looking forward to when it finally comes out, and i can make or partake in a new thread for the folk who have only heard first it in that monday of late march, getting all excited about it, and ignoring the folk who are 'meh' cuz they're used to it. just two and a half months to wait now...
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If...



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cjmacs wrote:
if musicians view their music as product then they should do business with the record companies. if they don't look at their music as being product, then there should be no morally reprehensible stance against downloading off of the internet.


In that case, they are essantially waiving their copyright, which is fine.
My brother is a - struggling - musician, and his band released an album about 6 months ago. He wanted to put the album on the internet, "because then more people would hear it". This is all very well, but a friend of theirs paid £6,000 for the album to be produced, and she needs to be paid back. Alex had not considered this at all (needless to say, he has no money himself!)... Thus, although the music is heard, the girl who paid for it would be out of pocket.

On the other hand, they have put up demos, complete songs and remixes for free download. This is entirely fine, since they have made the decision to waive their copyrights, and no one is losing out (these songs will almost certainly not make it onto the next album as they write the songs so quickly). Neil has not given his permission, nor waived his copyrights.

Sorry to bang on about this, but I feel quite strongly about it...
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Black Sheep Boy



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the "music we are sharing" thread though, has anyone asked any of the artists for their permission before posting/hosting those songs?

Is it wrong to do that too?

Going by what If... said earlier about personal morality, I agree with him. I have no problem with myself, and I don't feel sorry for listening to a few tracks now because I plan on buying the album when it's released. That's the thing about downloading and file sharing, it's ultimately up to the downloader to make a moral decision based upon their own personal values.
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Flip



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Is it wrong to do that too?

Yes... IMHO.

Of course there's the "but you might buy more stuff if you like them" argument... but that's the decision of the artist and/or the copyright holder - not the individual.
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agentcooper



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing a mix tape/CD for another person may be "wrong" in the sense that it infringes copyright, but it's really doing the artist a service if you encourage another person to buy more records.
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Flip



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>but it's really doing the artist a service if you encourage another person to
>buy more records.

...but that's the decision of the artist and/or the copyright holder - not the individual.
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agentcooper



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
...but that's the decision of the artist and/or the copyright holder - not the individual.


Kind of... but if it's in the public domain then I don't think it's so clear cut - I consider it akin to having a friend round your house and playing the record to them. Or hearing it on the radio.

Once a record has been released the artist has no control over the way you hear it, whether you listen to the songs in album order, or what other music you listen to it with, or who you play it to.

It's certainly not the same as giving someone a home-copy of a whole album, or downloading it off the web.
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Flip



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Kind of... but if it's in the public domain then I don't think it's so clear cut
>- I consider it akin to having a friend round your house and playing the
>record to them. Or hearing it on the radio.

Radio stations pay royalties for every single record they play - it's their business to deliver music, and the royalties are duly paid. They then generate ad revenue.. (or are public funded in the case of the BBC)

Similarly, your mate round at your house or vice-versa means that a copy has been bought, and royalties paid.

The fundamental difference with both examples, is owning a copy of the music to enjoy at your leisure, as opposed to experiencing it.

>It's certainly not the same as giving someone a home-copy of a whole
>album, or downloading it off the web

Nope.. It's like burgling a house, as opposed to a supermarket.
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Absolute Power
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The MP3s we can't talk about all sound badly compressed anyway, appear to be in mono and don't do justice to what should sound much wider.

On the debate of the morals of file sharing, it's not sharing it's copying surely. Tantamount to burgulary. I justify it as I know I will buy the album but do have tinges of guilt when downloading something I've no intention of buying. For instance this morning I fancied listening to You Got It by Roy Orbison (don't ask I was a bit hungover) so obtained it off t'net and was duly satisfied, although I couldn't quite enjoy as much as I would have had I bought it. However then I remembered he was dead anyway and what would he care.

Sorry not sure what my point was there. Pass the soup matron.
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agentcooper



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
The fundamental difference with both examples, is owning a copy of the music to enjoy at your leisure, as opposed to experiencing it.

Yeah, OK, I agree with you there. But if the objection to home-made mix tapes/CDs is that they damage the music industry or the artist's profits then I disagree.
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Flip



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>But if the objection to home-made mix tapes/CDs is that they damage
>the music industry or the artist's profits then I disagree.

I agree.. with you disgreeing.. or something.. Smile

I mean, you're absolutely right, home-made mix tapes/CD's do not (in my opinion) damage the music industry or the artist's profits at all...

The issue however, is one of stealing that artists music without permission - regardless of any good intention. Moreover, and if everyone was honest about it, I'd wager that a lot of these mix tapes/CD's will contain tracks that were downloaded in the first place!!

I know where you're coming from though.. It's hard to see the boring legality/morality, when people are just trying to do a nice thing!
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Witch



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind about the mix tape/CD thing. Apart from Neil, I have no morals to speak of, and I steal sweeties from small children in the street.
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luvly horse



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*fires up alto mp3 thingymebob*
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sponge monkey



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
The issue however, is one of stealing that artists music without permission - regardless of any good intention. Moreover, and if everyone was honest about it, I'd wager that a lot of these mix tapes/CD's will contain tracks that were downloaded in the first place!!


*has forthcoming swapathon CD at forefront of mind*

Not trying to be awkward, but what about this: I've got some tracks on old vinyl that I wanted to slap on the CD. I can either rig up my deck to the PC (very, very difficult) or download an mp3 of the track. Now, that track could well be a remastered, cleaned up version on a reissue CD - maybe a compilation that I don't actually own in any form. What should I do (Dear Marj etc)?

I'm only really asking because the last couple of days (especially in this particular thread) has made me re-evaluate my views on p2p 'sharing' (take note witchy and If...) and now I find I'm not as hardline as I thought I was the other day.
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agentcooper



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witch wrote:
I steal sweeties from small children in the street.


That's easy to justify - just think of it as protecting their teeth.
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agentcooper



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
The issue however, is one of stealing that artists music without permission - regardless of any good intention.


There are two purposes to copyright legislation: to protect commercial interests, and to prevent plagiarism.

I don't think a mix tape/CD infringes on either count, though I'm sure the big cheeses of the record industry would disagree. Mind you, they're the biggest pirates of the lot - getting fat and rich on the back of other people's hard work and talent. No wonder no-one feels any sympathy for their current plight.
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Flip



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Not trying to be awkward, but what about this: I've got some tracks on old
>vinyl that I wanted to slap on the CD. I can either rig up my deck to the
>PC (very, very difficult) or download an mp3 of the track. Now, that track
>could well be a remastered, cleaned up version on a reissue CD - maybe a
>compilation that I don't actually own in any form. What should I do (Dear
>Marj etc)?

I did exactly that with a load of vinyl about a year ago! It's fantastic - you get that lovely warm crackle on a cd in your car Smile

There's two things there I reckon.. Of course there's no harm in you owning a copy of that track - because you already bought it, and can therefore legitimately want to copy it... so in theory, there's no harm in you downloading an MP3 copy.

I wouldn't personally however, on principle, so as not to be seen to be participating (and therefore encouraging) the illegal distribution of copyrighted music on the internet.

>has made me re-evaluate my views on p2p 'sharing'

Oooh! How come?... and in what way!?
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agentcooper



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
Moreover, and if everyone was honest about it, I'd wager that a lot of these mix tapes/CD's will contain tracks that were downloaded in the first place!!


I put the new Franz Ferdinand single on the CD I made, and it's not even out yet. But! I didn't download it - I got sent a promo copy for winning a competition on the radio. I feel slightly uneasy about including it, but only slightly.

Of course it goes without saying that I shall be buying the single proper as soon as it comes out next week, but that's simply because it's fecking brilliant. And I urge everyone else to buy it too. It's a corker.
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cjmacs



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does anyone remember "home taping is killing music"? 'twas an ad campaign in the 70's thought up by the record companies to help promote the extinction of the cassette. well golly gee, guess what.... it didn't work. why not? because of something built into copyright laws called "fair use". it was ruled that persons DO have the right to tape music from a record so long as they are not making more than the amount of copies that would constitute "un-fair use" whatever that number may be.
so where does file sharing/p2p lie with this? if i upload a track for my friends to hear does that constitute fair use? does making a compilation cd fall under fair use? does posting pictures of celebrities on bulletin boards constitute fair use? is taping off the radio and then burning to a cd considered fair use? does anyone have all of the answers?
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agentcooper



Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cjmacs wrote:
so where does file sharing/p2p lie with this?


What makes it different to the 'home taping is killing music' business is that you are in theory making your entire music collection available to thousands upon thousands of people to download. There just wouldn't be enough hours in the day to make that many tapes.

The other claimed difference is that there is less incentive to buy CDs when the copies are of such high quality, but I don't go along with that myself.
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sponge monkey



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1538
Location: Stubbornly refusing to use an avatar since 2000.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
you get that lovely warm crackle on a cd in your car Smile


I get that from my suspension anyway...

The Divine Comedy wrote:

Oooh! How come?... and in what way!?


Well sort of somewhat summed up in this bit you've just said:
The Divine Comedy wrote:
participating (and therefore encouraging) the illegal distribution of copyrighted music on the internet.


I mean that's it in a nutshell, really, isn't it? Because you can't really participate without the 'encouraging' bit. You're either in or your out (damn you, If... - that's sort of what you said!).

Stuff like our Christmas singles. They're up on a site somewhere and I'd probably be really chuffed to stumble across them on Kazaa one day. But I'd probably be less chuffed to find someone making money out of ripping them off before I'd had the chance to shamelessly exploit them.

My last feeble justification, then, lies with the try-before-you buy thing. I don't have the radio on all day, I don't trust reviews and I don't bother with
the Amazony type five second previews, and with a collection of over 2,000 CDs, I've been stung enough times buying on spec.

So it's a bit of a dilemma.

*pauses for further thought*


Last edited by sponge monkey on Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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