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TDC Fans Unite In Denial
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Do you want to know about the album before it physically lands in your sweaty little paw?
Yes, tell me, tell me!
37%
 37%  [ 15 ]
No, this is not right!
62%
 62%  [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 40

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Flip



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1048
Location: The Emerald City

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Mind you he is a bit weird.



That made me laugh.. There's a whole load of nonsense about royalties/PRS/promoter rights blah blah blah...

When I've got more time tomorrow, I'll try to dig out a site or summat that breaks it down.

>If u want to be picky, the version of SD on the ASH bonus disc is exactly
>the same as on the demo tape, while the fanfare songs on it are not.

Coo! I did not know that.. I will listen to it again! That said, it doesn't make any difference in terms of the legitimacy of promoting a demo tape.. Like I said up there - the songs themselves are copyrighted (usually) anyhow by the artist... Incidentally - I should point out, that copyright is different to something being appropriate for royalty payments.. but that's by the by.
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luvly horse



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes they do
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L



Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 394
Location: Chatelet, Belgium

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolute Power wrote:
My brother is an organist


Show off
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Absolute Power
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's still ripping off the performer I guess. I dunno. Let's all be friends again. I've had the day off today and done nothing but sit on the internet being morally bankrupt with sharing software. Suddenly pornography doesn't seem such a perverted indulgance. Still I've heard the new album and have even written out the lyrics if anyone cares I happily stick them somewhere if you want to be teased but not spoilt.

Mind you that would be in breach of copyright.

Oh god..........
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Absolute Power
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

L wrote:
Absolute Power wrote:
My brother is an organist


Show off


Alright he's a tosser.
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L



Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 394
Location: Chatelet, Belgium

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolute Power wrote:
L wrote:
Absolute Power wrote:
My brother is an organist


Show off


Alright he's a tosser.


Wink
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If...



Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 1206
Location: The Land Of Devil May Care

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blue circles wrote:
This is true, if... but it doesn't extend to making a CD of various artists and then posting it to someone else, you ** hypocrite !


*shrug*

I think that we've heard enough justifications of the compilation tape/CD. Broadly speaking, I agree with them. And it is one CD to one person for non-commercial purposes, and it will not hurt, financially, either the artist or record company.

This does not apply to songs posted on the internet...
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cjmacs



Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Posts: 280
Location: danbury, connecticut, usa

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
Live shows (and the demo tape) are not commercial recordings - and as such - no copyright is held on either, in specific relation to those recordings. Neil Hannon individually holds copyright to the songs contained within each recording, but there is no way to commercially obtain them otherwise, and reward the artist/finance the production. I, along with many other people I'm sure, own the commercially available version of all the songs possible - and I would never dream of making them available online or anywhere else.

Live recordings / Royalty free tapes are a genuine example, of where you can't do any commercial damage - because what's downloaded is it! You can't go off and get the rest of the album or whatever.. because there isn't one! You want more, or better/studio quality - you buy it!.. or not, as the case may be.



most tickets to live shows carry a warning on them that states something on the order of "no cameras, no bottles, no recording devices"...etc. so if the recording itself is illegal (and in MANY cases AGAINST the artists' wishes) but you can't get it any other way, is it still o.k. to have it/download it/share it?
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Universal*



Joined: 24 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sponge monkey wrote:
This is turning into a fookin' Revivalist meeting... Exclamation


cjmacs wrote:
If... wrote:
...part of that is because I do love a good debate, and we haven't had such a stimulating one in ages!

yes!! i can find points in EVERYone's posts that i agree with! but i am STILL so fricking conflicted about the whole issue! Kopf tut weh

Brother cjmac, I feel your pain.
Shall we gather at the river?

*spins 'O Brother' soundtrack*
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agentcooper



Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Universal* wrote:
*spins 'O Brother' soundtrack*


Blimey! Great minds think alike and all that. 'Man of Constant Sorrow' was this close to making the cut for my compo CD.
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Lilypod



Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Posts: 1431

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Divine Comedy wrote:
First and foremost with the demo tape example, the blatantly obvious point, and the artists intention, is that a demo tape is distributed free of charge - to be heard by as many people of possible... That's why they exist.... The artist forfeits any potential royalties on those recordings in favour of exposure...so that's a bit of a poor example.. but anyway.


It might have been Neil Hannon's artistic intent in 1990 that the tape be heard by as many people as possible; however, in 2003, ClaireDC requested that the uploads on the DCBB be removed. Most of us fans know that Neil Hannon has stated that he does not want Fanfare or other early material from The Divine Comedy in its previous incarnation to be released officially, promoted, or given exposure. You could have argued your case with ClaireDC for the right to upload a track, stating that any royalties have already been forfeited, and that the demo was made with the express intention of gaining exposure. But common courtesy resulted in the track being removed.

Absolute Power wrote:
With regard to the recordings of live gigs, I could be wrong but the copyright is in the performance rather than the songs.

Absolute Power wrote:
Surely the copyright is always there whether the recording is commercially available or not? If I stumbled across a copy of Fanfare I couldn't just record it and distribute it surely.

cjmacs wrote:
most tickets to live shows carry a warning on them that states something on the order of "no cameras, no bottles, no recording devices"...etc. so if the recording itself is illegal (and in MANY cases AGAINST the artists' wishes) but you can't get it any other way, is it still o.k. to have it/download it/share it?


That's precisely it. My own point is that nobody is being legally consistent on this thread (including those who are calling others hypocrites and wankers). People upload gigs that have been recorded illegally and people obtain copies of these illegally recorded gigs, where the recording may have taken place against the wishes of the promoters, the venue or the artist. (Neil Hannon is on record as stating that he does not like the fact that people are accessing his live gigs on the internet.) Stating that the download doesn't hurt the commercial profits of the artist in question does not make the recording itself legal.
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Witch



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

black sheep boy wrote:
I know all this, and I agree with you. I'm not sure if you're aware of this but I work in a music shop and I've been selling CDs and records for 20 years. Let me tell you the music industry is in bad shape. This is exactly the reason why I've gone back to school because I know we won't be selling CDs in ten years time at this rate.


Record sales hit record high in 2003

I'm interested in whether the greater threat posed to high street music stores (be they the big chains like Virgin, or little places like Avalanche) is from internet piracy or being able to buy CDs more cheaply online. If someone can buy a chart CD for £8.99 (with free p&p) online, they are far less likely to pay £10+ for it on the high street.

This is taking the debate off on a tangent somewhat, but I'm interested as in whether people tend to buy CDs from shops or the web.
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airboy paul



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i know i'm gonna like the cd, or if it's cheap and i'll probably like it, then i'd get it from the web. but generally i prefer the instantness of getting it from a shop, as i can have it then, and much easier to return. plus i get to add the receipt to my cd receipt collections, and internet big receipt things aren't as good.
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Flip



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>but generally i prefer the instantness of getting it from a shop

Me too! I'm rubbish at waiting for stuff!!
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luvly horse



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agentcooper wrote:
Universal* wrote:
*spins 'O Brother' soundtrack*


Blimey! Great minds think alike and all that. 'Man of Constant Sorrow' was this close to making the cut for my compo CD.


and mine!
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Helen



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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Location: Oxford

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witch wrote:

This is taking the debate off on a tangent somewhat, but I'm interested as in whether people tend to buy CDs from shops or the web.


This is something me and Russ discuss quite a lot- we buy our CDs online from either CDwow or Play and the saving of 3 or 4 pounds a time has enabled to purchase more albums (roughly a third more than if we'd bought albums in HMV or Virgin). However, the UK music industry seems intent on shutting these operations down (see this recent article for details) which I think is terrible for the consumer- both in terms of cost and choice. Also note that Ben Folds has started selling his new EPs directly from a website rather than in any of the shops- the shipping/handling side of it is still handled by his record company (Sony) but he's taking a very interesting path, and I shall be watching to see what happens when he releases an album.

As for this whole downloading debate, I think Lilypod is right in that we must consider that it's just about all illegal in some way! Ther are bands who don't mind you recording their shows (The Polyphonic Spree, for example) although the shows tend to get burnt to CD and BnPs take place rather than downloads which a: keeps the number of copies reasonably small and b: keeps the quality of recording good. Although some shows are shared by bitrate. The Spree do stress however that it is at the venue's discretion as to whether recording devices are allowed in. However, I can't see anything "wrong" personally with downloading live tracks, or to an extent songs which aren't commercially available either. I haven't ever downloaded something which was available to buy on CD anywhere though as I do think that's stealing in some way.
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Flip



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>But common courtesy resulted in the track being removed.

Indeed... anything for an easy life! No less legal, but at request of the artist.. which kinda fits in with my theory, does it not? Neil said no, I take it down and apologise.. How was I to know!? ... I do know where you're coming from though! I'm just debated out on this subject I think..
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rachel2205



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE where I buy albums: I guess it depends on how much I want an album and how easily available it is. If I want it right away, or it's by a lesser known artist, a shop will do nicely. CD Wow is a good place for buying more commonly available things for cheap. And no postage to pay!
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If...



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't usually bother buying CDs on the web. Avalanche and Fopp provide both the cheapness and the instant gratification...
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airboy paul



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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Location: londinium

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helen wrote:
Witch wrote:

This is taking the debate off on a tangent somewhat, but I'm interested as in whether people tend to buy CDs from shops or the web.


This is something me and Russ discuss quite a lot- we buy our CDs online from either CDwow or Play and the saving of 3 or 4 pounds a time has enabled to purchase more albums (roughly a third more than if we'd bought albums in HMV or Virgin). However, the UK music industry seems intent on shutting these operations down (see this recent article for details) which I think is terrible for the consumer- both in terms of cost and choice. Also note that Ben Folds has started selling his new EPs directly from a website rather than in any of the shops- the shipping/handling side of it is still handled by his record company (Sony) but he's taking a very interesting path, and I shall be watching to see what happens when he releases an album.


i thought i'd go looky at cdwow, and they had david kitt's album (released tomorrow) for 7.99, so i quickly purchased it. will just ignore it when i see it in the shops until it arrives. and air's new album was 7.99, wow, never knew cd-wow stocked cds i might actually like! Very Happy
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Helen



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 152
Location: Oxford

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, they've really expanded their range lately- we ordered the Longview album yesterday from there (although they didn't have the Keys album which I wanted)
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agentcooper



Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helen wrote:
However, the UK music industry seems intent on shutting these operations down (see this recent article for details) which I think is terrible for the consumer- both in terms of cost and choice.


I love this. It really highlights the hypocrisy of the music industry. They want access to a global market but they won't allow the same option to consumers.

They say they have to make CDs cheaper in the Far East because it's a new market they're trying to break into, but if they can afford to do that without hurting their profits it's pretty much admitting that they don't actually need to sell them at such high prices here and that they take us all for mugs.

Evil thieving bastards.
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Witch



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CD Wow forced to raise prices
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Rowan Morrison



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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Location: Wigan Casino. Keeping the faith.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witch wrote:
CD Wow forced to raise prices


The only thing I've ever ordered from them got a great big bloody customs tax banged on it at the post office. Which is bobbins cos with it being under $50 I don't think it should have been taxed at all. So if I do collect it, it's gonna end up costing me more than it would have down the high street. Grrrrrrr! It's only just turned up and I've already contacted them to say I haven't got it, so they've despatched a new one. Hopefully that one will come through my door.

Has this happened to anyone else?
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Dagada Dagada



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything over £18 can get a customs charge - CDWOW normally dispatch all items in seperate packages to avoid this, and most boxsets from them seem to get through OK. However, almost everything I have ordered from Amazon.com has got charged - even if the goods cost less than £18 cos they include the postage on the declaration. GRRRR!
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sponge monkey



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dagada Dagada wrote:
However, almost everything I have ordered from Amazon.com has got charged - even if the goods cost less than £18 cos they include the postage on the declaration. GRRRR!


Have you tried *CD Universe*? I got a double DVD (about £25 in all) from them the other day and it seemed to fly in under the radar okay (and only took four days as well).
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Rowan Morrison



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dagada Dagada wrote:
Anything over £18 can get a customs charge - CDWOW normally dispatch all items in seperate packages to avoid this


Bah! It was 20 squids. Which is about $36, I think. I've had stuff from America that's come in fine cos it's been under $50. I don't get it. Looks like I'm probably buggered. Big sucky arses. I'm gonna get taxed £8.00 on top of it. Grrrrrr! If the other one does come through the door, I may go and collect the first one and flog it on ebay. Serves 'em right, the gizzards.

Where do they post there stuff from?
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Dagada Dagada



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends - Some stuff comes from the far east, some from the US and some from Sweden. Most stuff from the US is re-shipped from within the UK.
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Jennifer



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dagada Dagada wrote:
. However, almost everything I have ordered from Amazon.com has got charged - even if the goods cost less than £18 cos they include the postage on the declaration. GRRRR!


No that is the dirty filth fine you have got there
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Dagada Dagada



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not watch Dirty Filth. Not ever, no no no no no. I only watch Annie.
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Jennifer



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would not be allowed yo watch Annie because of the darkness that is in your head. Punjab would put a spell on you and everyone would say "Oh my goodness, oh my goodness"
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Dagada Dagada



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's go to the movies, let's go see some filth.
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Witch



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone got experience of www.splashdvd.com ? I've been taking a look at their website and was rather impressed with the CD and book collections.
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Dagada Dagada



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be careful of Spash!!! There's a 32 page thread about SplashDVD woes over on the DVD Forums! It seems people are charged, orders do not turn up - or people order and nothing turns up for months and months.......
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Witch



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I see, cheers Dag!
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Flip



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I've ever been charged anything extra on Amazon stuff... but then I don't buy that much from there really. I buy an awful lot of DVDs, but they tend to be impulse/spur of the moment purchases. Almost daily.

I reckon Tesco are well cheap for films.
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Helen



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Witch wrote:
CD Wow forced to raise prices



That absolutely stinks.

(But thanks for the link!)
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Jennifer



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dagada Dagada wrote:
Let's go to the movies, let's go see some filth.


http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8849/Moviemusicals/Sandy/images/Sandy.ram
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